Curse

Gli · Feb 28, 2007, 08:59 PM // 20:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by pork soldier

Unreasonable is debating the design for two years and expecting it to change now.

That's not unreasonable, it's called tenacity. The opposite would be to roll over and die.

Bryant Again · Feb 28, 2007, 10:39 PM // 22:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by SPIRIT OF THE SEA

(not asian countries no offense never have favor)

Spelt it out. They never have favor. They can't go unto the Underworld or the Fissure, and they never get the bonuses at shrines.

How is that fair?

TabascoSauce · Feb 28, 2007, 10:51 PM // 22:51

Quote:

Spelt it out. They never have favor. They can't go unto the Underworld or the Fissure, and they never get the bonuses at shrines.

How is that fair?

I agree with you, Bryant, it is not fair. I would like to see it changed too! But other posters are most likely correct that it will not change.

To win and hold favor must have consequences, or it is meaningless. And...tens of thousands of people seeing the avatars and knowing that their region has favor, as well as tens of thousands more not seeing that and being unable to access the ultimate areas in GW, is consequences.

If they remove that, then what will the winners have to brag and crow about? I'd wager that without real stakes, the competition would be less fierce and the PvP population would decrease.

Sorry man.
TabascoSauce

Smile Like Umean It · Feb 28, 2007, 10:53 PM // 22:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thunder79

I'd pay it...so would most other probably. Which would essentially make favor meaningless...

True. But I wouldn't do it because, to me, it's saying that the way favor is now is okay, and it really isn't.
And don't forget about server crashes when undoubtedly everyone and their mom moves onto the same server leaving the others desolate.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pork soldier

pvp control of pve areas is what makes guildwars different from other games - it gives guildwars unique flavor, and it gives people who wouldn't pvp a reason to try it.

It doesn't make me want to try it. In fact all it does is make me stay away and resent it. But that's just me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SPIRIT OF THE SEA

Although I basically only play one I still think its fair that pvp makes pve decisions. A-net made it this way for a reason!

That doesn't make it right. Or even smart.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SPIRIT OF THE SEA

All you who say that it shouldnt are idiot cry babys who think WAHHHHHH i cant get into the fow cause dam europe has it all time Its not fair.

Idiot cry babies who so far have made much more intelligent posts than yours by far. Not to mention some of the people who post here are on Euro servers.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SPIRIT OF THE SEA

so get off your fat lazy asses and do some HA get a real feel for the game and then quit complaining and go mending the fow >_<

I can assure you I'm neither fat nor lazy. Insulting others gets you nowhere. If I go get a team of 5 people standing in ToA waiting for a group to UW/FoW what are the chances of us making it through the first map? Then actually making it to HoH and holding 5 times in a row?

WasAGuest · Feb 28, 2007, 11:12 PM // 23:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by pork soldier

pvp control of pve areas is what makes guildwars different from other games - it gives guildwars unique flavor, and it gives people who wouldn't pvp a reason to try it.

As Gli said, and I can add too as well; it has added reasons not to purchase future GW games. Why?
Why engage in something we do not enjoy (GW PvP) to be able to play somethign we do enjoy (GW PvE) when we can simply spend the money else where and not have to worry about GW PvP or PvP in general?

That unique flavor tastes a lot like sour milk or rancid chicken if you ask me and those along with GW PvP are unpleasant to even be near.

Rene Saliere · Mar 01, 2007, 12:29 AM // 00:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by TabascoSauce

To win and hold favor must have consequences, or it is meaningless. And...tens of thousands of people seeing the avatars and knowing that their region has favor, as well as tens of thousands more not seeing that and being unable to access the ultimate areas in GW, is consequences.

If they remove that, then what will the winners have to brag and crow about? I'd wager that without real stakes, the competition would be less fierce and the PvP population would decrease.

Consequences? Thanks reminding us of the phenomenon known as cause and effect. I should remind you that just because something affects tens of thousands of people doesn't make it good.
eg: Natural disasters.

If they removed the Favor system, which most HA players don't care about or they wouldn't play in International... they would still have the biggest emotes in the game - Ranks - and they would still have gold drops like Legendary Swords, Runic Blades and Celestial Sigils.

They would also still have their guild name broadcast across the entire game in order to ruin the painstakingly designed PvE atmosphere with : Xx Clumsily Rendered Tolkienesque Name Xx has worn Hoh blah blah blah.

Kate Soulguard · Mar 01, 2007, 01:25 AM // 01:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by pork soldier

Comparing pvp packs and free access to the underworld is quite the logical leap ....from a bridge, to logical suicide.

pvp control of pve areas is what makes guildwars different from other games - it gives guildwars unique flavor, and it gives people who wouldn't pvp a reason to try it.

Heya Pork Soldier;

I am genuinely in your point of view. Could you explain how my argument is a logical leap?

To sum up my position: What is PvE to a PvPer? There is either a free way or a paid way for PvPers to circumvent any need to access PvE areas. From what I see, the reverse is not true. Therefore, in my view a paid "Free Roam" travel pack (that circumvents the need to worry about favor) is to PvE what a "skill unlock" pack (that circumvents the need to unlock those skills, including elite skills,* in PvE areas) is to PvP. I do not understand how this is a logical leap and hope you will elaborate further.

* - Gotta cite my source! http://www.guildwars.com/support/gam...vpeditions.php
(Thanks to Tari Laisi for locating that reference page!)

pork soldier · Mar 01, 2007, 02:11 AM // 02:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kate Soulguard

Heya Pork Soldier;

I am genuinely in your point of view. Could you explain how my argument is a logical leap?

To sum up my position: What is PvE to a PvPer? There is either a free way or a paid way for PvPers to circumvent any need to access PvE areas. From what I see, the reverse is not true. Therefore, in my view a paid "Free Roam" travel pack (that circumvents the need to worry about favor) is to PvE what a "skill unlock" pack (that circumvents the need to unlock those skills, including elite skills,* in PvE areas) is to PvP. I do not understand how this is a logical leap and hope you will elaborate further.

Since the addition of balthazar faction to pvp there has been no reason for dedicated pvp only players to play pve, with one exception, it's far faster to unlock skills in pve by buying them than it is to grind balth faction to unlock them. Basically the pvp packs were a shortcut that let players get up to speed and play the portion of the game that they want in a short period of time.

If you want to connect pvp packs to a comparable pve time saver then I suggest that Anet start selling gold from the in-game store, pvp pack price for 1M should be about fair. Alternately a pvp pack priced "unlock all outposts and missions" option would work as well. Both of these options are time savers for pve players

Paid access to the UW or FoW has substantial gameplay problems that haven't been addressed.

First, the UW and FoW are a reward for your region doing well in the global tournament, you aren't entitled to them all the time. This sounds harsh but in the same way that you aren't entitled to go to the deep or urgoz's warren you are not entitled to go to the UW whenever you want. I'm pretty sure I'm going to get flamed for saying that, but that's how the mechanic governing those areas is designed.

Second, you're going to mix the haves and the have nots in the same area - this is going to make a large portion of the playerbase angry that they aren't allowed access because they haven't spent their $10usd. That isn't good PR, it makes the "pay for more stuff" business model very apparent.

Third, you're allowing professional farmers permanent access to the most profitably farmed area of the game (24/7 smite runs anyone?) I think this is a large part of why people support this idea, they can do ecto runs whenever they like if they have 24/7 access to the UW. Basically they're paying for gold in a very indirect way.

So back to the logical leap ~ the UW and FoW are rewards for coordinated effort, much like elite missions, while pvp packs are paid for time savers - they are separate concepts, hence connecting them is a massive logical leap.

edit: there are other reasons for pvp players to pve, pve-only weapon and armor skins are a big part of that.

edit2: basically what you're asking for is a license to farm ecto and shards, if that is the case then I think we can rephrase the debate in terms of why people need or want more in game money.

dgb · Mar 01, 2007, 02:20 AM // 02:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by ca_aok

P.S. New players can't play HA. No rank 3 = no group = no favor.

This is utter crap. First off, everyone started out rank zero. It happens, you deal with it. Secondly, you try to bridge the gap, you'll get help. I rarely lead groups in HA, but when I do, if someone whispers me and asks can they join, they are unranked but have played PVP with that class and know the basics more often than not I'll let them come. If I don't want to for whatever reason, I put them on my friends list and take them in another group later. Most of the people who I know who regularly run groups are happy to take unranked people with them if they have done some basic search, have an idea how to play and know the builds.

I started HA when rank was firmly entrenched and I got most of it in R3 or higher groups when I was unranked - it's called communicating and being a decent player. If you sit in HA ID1 and don't make any effort to bridge the gap your fame stands still. If you sit and whine on a forum about discrimination and elitism it stands still. If all you get is people saying they don't want you, maybe you should work on your communication skills because I never had any trouble getting into ranked groups without prior contact. In fact I still don't have trouble getting into groups ranked higher than I am. If you try and talk to people, ask questions, attempt to learn you may get somewhere...

Say you and 3 other PVE friends want to learn how to play HA? Find a PVP player off a forum who is ranked, ask them to come along. You'll find if they aren't doing anything else, they'll come. They'll give you tips, help you out and if you are decent players but inexperienced they'll be happy to come back and help you out later as well.

I'll tell you a story about a friend of mine. At the time he was about 30 fame off rank 3. He was getting sick of being close, so he got a decent PVPers name off of some forums. It was Tiyuri, who posts here of Wee Free Men. That night we played with his guild (we were both sub rank 3) at this stage, both got our rank 3 deers. A couple of days later, we had some more people, all of us ~rank 3 and needed a few more so we asked Tiyuri to come along. He was happy to. Within a week he'd invited a guild full of low ranked guys who weren't particularly good into his alliance (something our leader foolishly left later but that's another issue). Communication and networking are keys in PVP and if you can't do it you'll fail. That's not the rank systems fault, it's yours.

Edit: While you do all this, have an open mind. If someone tells you that a skill is bad or suggests something, listen to them. Don't cry when they criticise your build, take it as an opportunity to improve. If you go in thinking "my warrior must have Griffon Sweep because that suits his roleplaying background" you aren't going to get good results...

pork soldier · Mar 01, 2007, 02:38 AM // 02:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by dgb

Edit: While you do all this, have an open mind. If someone tells you that a skill is bad or suggests something, listen to them. Don't cry when they criticise your build, take it as an opportunity to improve. If you go in thinking "my warrior must have Griffon Sweep because that suits his roleplaying background" you aren't going to get good results...

Signed, once you realize that internet games are all about who you know and how you communicate then things are *far* easier.

Rene Saliere · Mar 01, 2007, 04:12 AM // 04:12

Regarding all this free advice about how to play HA... go start a thread on it. This thread is about PvP controlling access to PvE areas.

America hasn't had Favor at all today, which is a hopeful sign for me. I think the broken system needs to be really nuked before it will be removed. That nuking might come in the form of Europe having Favor 100% of the time.

And on that note... GO EUROPE! (including your American and Asian allies in International Districts, of course).

PS: Pork, read the post title "It's the economy, stupid." before posting nonsense about the economic impact of opening UW/FoW. Thanks.

Mechz · Mar 01, 2007, 05:15 AM // 05:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

I vote just more PvP for PvE in general.

Player Bounties. Duels. More PvP matches to progress the primary quests.

Ya, i know. Im mean.

I like you.

I vote: Yes.

PvE players are generally wimps when it comes to playing things that... think.

Thunder79 · Mar 01, 2007, 05:18 AM // 05:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by dgb

This is utter crap. First off, everyone started out rank zero. It happens, you deal with it. Secondly, you try to bridge the gap, you'll get help. I rarely lead groups in HA, but when I do, if someone whispers me and asks can they join, they are unranked but have played PVP with that class and know the basics more often than not I'll let them come. If I don't want to for whatever reason, I put them on my friends list and take them in another group later. Most of the people who I know who regularly run groups are happy to take unranked people with them if they have done some basic search, have an idea how to play and know the builds.

I started HA when rank was firmly entrenched and I got most of it in R3 or higher groups when I was unranked - it's called communicating and being a decent player. If you sit in HA ID1 and don't make any effort to bridge the gap your fame stands still. If you sit and whine on a forum about discrimination and elitism it stands still. If all you get is people saying they don't want you, maybe you should work on your communication skills because I never had any trouble getting into ranked groups without prior contact. In fact I still don't have trouble getting into groups ranked higher than I am. If you try and talk to people, ask questions, attempt to learn you may get somewhere...

Say you and 3 other PVE friends want to learn how to play HA? Find a PVP player off a forum who is ranked, ask them to come along. You'll find if they aren't doing anything else, they'll come. They'll give you tips, help you out and if you are decent players but inexperienced they'll be happy to come back and help you out later as well.

I'll tell you a story about a friend of mine. At the time he was about 30 fame off rank 3. He was getting sick of being close, so he got a decent PVPers name off of some forums. It was Tiyuri, who posts here of Wee Free Men. That night we played with his guild (we were both sub rank 3) at this stage, both got our rank 3 deers. A couple of days later, we had some more people, all of us ~rank 3 and needed a few more so we asked Tiyuri to come along. He was happy to. Within a week he'd invited a guild full of low ranked guys who weren't particularly good into his alliance (something our leader foolishly left later but that's another issue). Communication and networking are keys in PVP and if you can't do it you'll fail. That's not the rank systems fault, it's yours.

Edit: While you do all this, have an open mind. If someone tells you that a skill is bad or suggests something, listen to them. Don't cry when they criticise your build, take it as an opportunity to improve. If you go in thinking "my warrior must have Griffon Sweep because that suits his roleplaying background" you aren't going to get good results...

*clears throat*

I DON'T GIVE A DAMN ABOUT RANK...THERE ARE MANY PEOPLE LIKE ME...WE DO NOT CARE TO PLAY PVP...WE ARE HERE FOR THE PVE.

I will keep complaining until favor is removed or changed so PvP does not control it.

To Any PvP players that tell people like me to go play HA and stop complaining...just shove that rank somewhere uncomfortable.

seut · Mar 01, 2007, 05:25 AM // 05:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mechz

PvE players are generally wimps when it comes to playing things that... think.

please close this thread. it's becoming a joke for #gwp trolls.

Thunder79 · Mar 01, 2007, 05:33 AM // 05:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by pork soldier

Since the addition of balthazar faction to pvp there has been no reason for dedicated pvp only players to play pve, with one exception, it's far faster to unlock skills in pve by buying them than it is to grind balth faction to unlock them. Basically the pvp packs were a shortcut that let players get up to speed and play the portion of the game that they want in a short period of time.

If you want to connect pvp packs to a comparable pve time saver then I suggest that Anet start selling gold from the in-game store, pvp pack price for 1M should be about fair. Alternately a pvp pack priced "unlock all outposts and missions" option would work as well. Both of these options are time savers for pve players

Paid access to the UW or FoW has substantial gameplay problems that haven't been addressed.

First, the UW and FoW are a reward for your region doing well in the global tournament, you aren't entitled to them all the time. This sounds harsh but in the same way that you aren't entitled to go to the deep or urgoz's warren you are not entitled to go to the UW whenever you want. I'm pretty sure I'm going to get flamed for saying that, but that's how the mechanic governing those areas is designed.

Second, you're going to mix the haves and the have nots in the same area - this is going to make a large portion of the playerbase angry that they aren't allowed access because they haven't spent their $10usd. That isn't good PR, it makes the "pay for more stuff" business model very apparent.

Third, you're allowing professional farmers permanent access to the most profitably farmed area of the game (24/7 smite runs anyone?) I think this is a large part of why people support this idea, they can do ecto runs whenever they like if they have 24/7 access to the UW. Basically they're paying for gold in a very indirect way.

So back to the logical leap ~ the UW and FoW are rewards for coordinated effort, much like elite missions, while pvp packs are paid for time savers - they are separate concepts, hence connecting them is a massive logical leap.

edit: there are other reasons for pvp players to pve, pve-only weapon and armor skins are a big part of that.

edit2: basically what you're asking for is a license to farm ecto and shards, if that is the case then I think we can rephrase the debate in terms of why people need or want more in game money.

No...as has been said many times...people have offered many ways of restricting access to UW/FoW that doesn't involve PvP. We want the PvP link removed or some other method to gain access that doesn't rely on PvP results (leave the pvp link in...just give us another way...a PvE way!). Also a simple modification to drop rates would solve farming problems...as been said many times.

First...we are trying to break that link to PvP...because it is a PvE reward for PvP...which makes no sense. Most of the people that go there do not go there to get access to UW/FoW...they are there for other reasons.

Second...why would mixing have and have nots be any different with a UW/FoW unlock pack than it is with PvP unlock packs? No doubt there are people in PvP that don't have the unlock packs yet and rely on pve or faction to unlock skills. It's still a shortcut anyway you look at it.

Third...As I said...most people have offered some ideas that involve pve ways of restricting access to UW/FoW. Over-farming can be reduced by cutting drop rates...that's an easy fix. No doubt there are people who want unrestricted access. What we are asking for is some PvE way of restricting it...and removing the PvP restriction.

Thunder79 · Mar 01, 2007, 05:35 AM // 05:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by seut

please close this thread. it's becoming a joke for #gwp trolls.

leave it open....until it breaks out into an all out flamewar...another one will just be opened up and they'll go to that one. They look at the issue to be one they will troll about. So no matter where the discussion is held they will go there.

Nuke the posters that are trolling...not the thread they are trolling...

dgb · Mar 01, 2007, 06:38 AM // 06:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thunder79

*clears throat*

I DON'T GIVE A DAMN ABOUT RANK...THERE ARE MANY PEOPLE LIKE ME...WE DO NOT CARE TO PLAY PVP...WE ARE HERE FOR THE PVE.

I will keep complaining until favor is removed or changed so PvP does not control it.

To Any PvP players that tell people like me to go play HA and stop complaining...just shove that rank somewhere uncomfortable.

I was responding to a direct comment that it's too hard to get started in HA. I wasn't saying you should get started, I was saying for those who feel that it is too hard there are ways to move on.

If you don't want to PVP, good for you. But if people are going to complain that they can't get started in PVP or HA, others are going to respond.

Kate Soulguard · Mar 01, 2007, 07:50 AM // 07:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by pork soldier

First, the UW and FoW are a reward for your region doing well in the global tournament, you aren't entitled to them all the time. This sounds harsh but in the same way that you aren't entitled to go to the deep or urgoz's warren you are not entitled to go to the UW whenever you want.

Ah, but the implementation of elite dungeons across the PvE campaigns is inconsistent. Why is that? Here's a brief review:

FOW / UW: Implemented in Prophecies, exclusive access is predicated on a player being in the favored territory when they go to a shrine.
Urgoz / Deep: Implemented in Factions, exclusive access is predicated on the availability of a taxi (ferry) from the prevailing guild in that town.
Tombs (TPK): Implemented at the start of Factions and available in the Prophecies campaign, access is predicated on completing the story arc (more or less).
Domain of Anguish: Implemented in Nightfall, access is predicated on completing the story arc (more or less).

Interesting, isn't it? When we consider it from a historical perspective, by the time Factions came out there was a crack in the Favor design, and by the time Nightfall came out the design had changed completely from a model based exclusively on PVP results to a model based exclusively on completing the PvE story arc. In my view, this is tacit admission from ANet that the two previous implementation methodologies were poorly-received by most players and too flawed to reuse due to the awkward logistics that 80% of us are complaining about right now.

While we're on this subject, I do want to give ANet credit where it's due. They have really improved elite dungeon access over time with each chapter's release, and I'm greatful for it! It also makes sense that they do it this way, at least from a financial perspective. They'd probably want to adjust the policy for future titles that have the greatest potential to generate revenue. Design remediation for legacy titles becomes a very low priority over time. After all, the revenue stream for legacy games falls naturally to a fraction of what it was at initial release and, consequently, maintenance and design remediation have a much lower return on investment. All the same, the design improvements we've seen over the course of three chapters is apparent to me. They are listening and they are improving as they move the story forward. They just can't afford to improve things that no longer generate the lion's share of the company's revenue.

And THAT is precisely why I am proposing a paid offering to uncap territory transfers. It guarantees that ANet is paid for the resources they'd need to allocate in order to implement a fix.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pork soldier

Second, you're going to mix the haves and the have nots in the same area - this is going to make a large portion of the playerbase angry that they aren't allowed access because they haven't spent their $10usd. That isn't good PR, it makes the "pay for more stuff" business model very apparent.

What on earth... it makes it very apparent? I mean no disrespect, but you're ignoring the elephant in the middle of the room. There's an online store button in the corner of your screen right after you log in and you can buy all kinds of stuff there. Skill packs are available for purchase for PvP characters. Heck, people got mini pets in the game because they went out, bought a magazine, and used some promotional code in the online store. Someone can pay a little more for GW at the store and get some glitzy moves (replete with a disco ball for Pete's sake) for their character dances. No sir, I am sorry, but ANet fully embraces this model. It's plain as day. And concerning the issue at hand: in light of the fact that we may not ever see positive changes unless we volunteer to throw some money at it, I embrace the idea of "paying for more stuff" in this case.

And I'm definitely not alone!

Quote:

Originally Posted by pork soldier

Third, you're allowing professional farmers permanent access to the most profitably farmed area of the game (24/7 smite runs anyone?)

I must dispute this also. To reiterate what virtually everyone realizes already: professional farmers already have multiple accounts to cover multiple territories and get around the territory switch cap. I've met a few and they all do it this way.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pork soldier

Since the addition of balthazar faction to pvp there has been no reason for dedicated pvp only players to play pve, with one exception, it's far faster to unlock skills in pve by buying them than it is to grind balth faction to unlock them. Basically the pvp packs were a shortcut that let players get up to speed and play the portion of the game that they want in a short period of time.
.
.
.
So back to the logical leap ~ the UW and FoW are rewards for coordinated effort, much like elite missions, while pvp packs are paid for time savers - they are separate concepts, hence connecting them is a massive logical leap.

No no, make no mistake, the remediation that I and others are asking for is a precise matter of saving time. I want to spend time with my friends, in areas that interest us, pursuing goals that interest us. My friends and I have played the game a lot. We've been to a lot of areas. We've bought a lot of armor. My guild has never been able to complete all of the quests within UW and FoW, and it's precisely because of time. My guildmates are in the American territory, and we are all interested in visiting those areas. We cannot do so because of time. The time available to farm FOW is out of sync with the time available to us to play together.

Therefore, the proposal I have made is precisely opposite of what you say is logical suicide. It is, very precisely, a paid-for time saver provided to PvE'ers so that we don't have to grind in a PvP area we hate in order to secure favor. It's really not logical suicide at all - such a time shortcut is a direct comparison to the time shortcut available for purchase to PvP players. To use your own phrasing, basically the Free Roam pack would be a shortcut that lets PvE players play the portion of the game that they want during a time of day that is reasonable.

Edge Martinez · Mar 01, 2007, 08:16 AM // 08:16

Voting aside Kate, I like your proposal just for the fact that I think it would be great to play with the European folks or Korean folks at will. It'd provide a better pace to the game as well, since some servers are more active at certain times. Plus you get to see new strategies for the missions, or reaffirm your old ones. I'd pay a $10 fee just for that. UW/FoW would be bonus.

RichPowers · Mar 01, 2007, 08:28 AM // 08:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kate Soulguard

They are listening and they are improving as they move the story forward. They just can't afford to improve things that no longer generate the lion's share of the company's revenue.

It's funny how we often overlook the practical side of things. Thanks for that insightful post, btw. It's both profitable (and marketable) to leave the sweeping changes for new campaigns. Implementing new gameplay ideas into older zones not only costs dev time/money, but would lessen the impact of a new chapter's innovations. And therein lies upside and downside of Anet's campaign structure. Gameplay can evolve frequently, but older areas are left in the dust.

Just another way of looking at it.